How Wisconsin’s New Maps Could Help Biden

This is cute.

Home of Susie. Who’s Susie?

Yeah. Susie the duck.

In 1948, a country mallard settled down in downtown Lodi. She laid her eggs in a masonry flower basket, endearing herself to locals and visitors who observed her brood. Named “Susie” by police chief Will Breuning’s granddaughter, our mascot’s fame spread.

Susie faithfully returned to her flower basket, raising two clutches of eggs each year and attracting national media attention. Over the years, many Susie’s have nested in this basket. Lodi still hosts an annual Susie the Duck Festival celebrating the famous fowl who rests in the heart of Lodi.

That’s pretty cute.

Yeah.

It’s also a nice way of saying “the duck died.”

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, many Susies have come. I was like, oh. Oh.

We’re all Susie.

All these different parts of the state, they would draw these wonky, weird lines. There was the T-Rex district that looked like a little dinosaur where the mouth of the dinosaur was the place where the Democrats lived.

The Z district in Waukesha County that looked like the letter Z, because it was drawn to bring all the Democrats together and prevent them from electing two state representatives, which is what they’d done right before those maps came in.

In Wisconsin, no matter what the government does, we always know exactly who’s going to control the state legislature here, which means the power of the purse and the power to write laws. This year is when all that starts to change.

Wisconsin voters have made their voices heard.

[CHEERING]

They’ve chosen to reject partisan extremism in this state.

And in that moment, it became clear that democracy could actually be reborn in our state.

Today is a day that, I believe, will define our state’s future.

We have a once-in-a-generation Big Bang moment to go from near supermajorities in both legislative chambers to a chance to win our state assembly majority and move towards a senate majority over the next two cycles.

Suddenly, they’re purple, just like the actual populace is. And that means in northwest, southeast, central Wisconsin, you could have these patches of blue open up where right now it’s a sea of red.

Lodi and the 14th Senate District is essential to ever getting a Democratic majority in the state senate.

Hi, how are you? Astead, nice to meet you.

It’s nice to meet you.

How’s it going?

I’m wildly nervous, but I’m really excited —

No, don’t be. Don’t be. We’re just here to hang out.

And this.

No, we just have — we just have to bring the fancy mic so we can hear you well. Thank you for —

— as someone who does therapy on Zoom, this is much better.

Yes. Yes. I do —

We share more in this room.

My graduating class was about 49 people. Grew up on a dairy farm there and with four siblings. And the community was really richly rural. We were very steeped into our Lutheran background, so there was a lot of neighbors that went to the same church, a small little church up on a hill. And so we just did a lot with that.

And I really didn’t know if it would work because it’s such a small town, but I really believe in having people have access, right, to what they need for care. And so I opened this practice in 2018 and was fortunate enough that it was successful.

Politics became something on my radar for me personally less than nine months ago.

Wow.

Yeah. So during COVID, being a therapist ended up being very heavy, I would say. It was —

I’m surprised it “ended up.” I mean, I imagined it as a heavy profession.

You know, I’ve done it for so long that I find it very invigorating. I love doing what I do. But it was the first time that I really felt drained — deeply drained — by the work I was doing. And I wasn’t sure how to manage that, honestly.

And so, as I’ve said to people, nobody wants a depressed therapist. So I had to figure out, how do I take care of me? And for me, what I found along the way was a great quote and then a passion project, basically. The quote was “action is the antidote to despair,” by Joan Baez. And that really helped me to go, that’s what I need to do is I need to activate this distress I have into something that feels meaningful.

It was called Lift Lodi. And I just said, hey, who would be willing to volunteer? Let’s work on uplifting our community by putting bark under the swingsets. It was cleaning the windows of the library. It was raking a neighbor’s lawn — doing that kind of stuff. Because service, I think, is really empowering, and it gives us a sense of something bigger than ourselves. It’s very healing.

They said, you know what’ll help is you’ll get your name on the ballot — really, really, really hard to win, but you can help upticket. And you can get a message out there — a progressive message about what really matters.

Those new maps changed the district that I was in from a plus-18 Republican to a plus-16 Democrat. And honestly, that —

it lost some of its pull for me because I thought then, well, other people are going to be willing to run because you can get that seat. And I had heard that there was somebody that was really interested in running, and so there’d be a primary. And I was really interested in not necessarily needing to do that. And so I was actually contemplating and talking to people about maybe bowing out and just endorsing that person.

And to be clear, the part of it that was less appealing to you was that you — was what?

Well —

You didn’t want to run against other Democrats?

Not really. I thought that seems like a little bit of a waste of resources. I also thought the new map, the district was a little less rural. And for me, rural is my heart. And so while I love the other area, it just wasn’t as compelling to me.

I didn’t feel like I was as needed. I have an energy that if I’m passionate about something, I can do lots. But if I’m not passionate about it, like, my heart’s not in it. And so I kind of just didn’t feel like my heart was as in it.

I got a call from two senators.

And I talked to them, and I said to them, I said, I love that you’re asking me. I said, but I need to know why and the fact that I don’t have to change, because I don’t want to change. I want to be able to be myself.

I don’t want to be a cookie-cutter politician. I’m too old to be other than who I am. And they said, no. Sarah, that’s actually what we want. We want you to just be you. We believe that you have the right care for your community. And then we talked about, well, some of the things that are important to me, and what it would mean to be a senator, and having then maybe being able to flip the Senate in 2026, and the fact that maybe, then, we could have universal meals for children for in-school, maybe we could have better access to mental health services, maybe we could have — and all of a sudden, everything in me felt like, OK, if this is what I’m needed to do now, this is what I’ll do, because it feels that important.

You mentioned the issues that got you motivated. I see through-line between starting the things like the nonprofit. I guess considering how recently your lens turned to politics, How did you go about finding policy issues that you most cared about? And what are the specific ones that you would say your campaign is housed in?

Well, part of it is reflection. And I’ll say when I started my practice, one of the things I did was what’s called a values assessment. And when I did that, the values that came to the surface were contribution, compassion, and moral courage. And so shifting into politics, then, is really about compassion.

Well, compassion, to me, is all about, how do we serve one another? How do we make sure that the least of those are served well? So Medicaid expansion, for example, is really important to me — to make sure that everybody has access to health care, improve mental health care access. Rural economies are really important to me — making sure that we have small businesses that are supported in our rural communities.

They are the life of a town. Public school funding is hugely important. Women have the right to make decisions about their body and have autonomy for their health care decisions. So reproductive rights are important. So I guess all of those things are just things that are important. And then they translate, ultimately, into legislation.

How is the brand of the Democratic Party in rural communities, if you think about Wisconsin? We know through numbers, it’s become increasingly urban of a party. There’s been less and less Democrats representing rural communities. And the bottom has kind of fallen off for some of the folks when you look at the national level. When you say, “I’m a Democrat,” and you’re in a place that’s overwhelmingly Republican, what’s the response?

It’s not necessarily positive. But I think if I can connect with the things, value-wise, that are important, right, making sure that we support one another, making sure that there’s not too much government interference, like having a say over our bodies, making sure that we support small businesses so that we can uplift our communities.

But can you diagnose for me — what do you think went wrong for Democrats in rural communities? Because they used to do better in places like Wisconsin.

Yeah. I think that there’s a lot of disinformation, I think, although I think there is also some truth to there’s been an elite class, if you will, that they’ll talk about that I don’t think is necessarily inaccurate either. So I think it has been maybe leaned away from some of those central ideals. But I also think more of it is disinformation, honestly.

I hear you. I remember talking to Wisconsin Democrats over the last eight years or so, and it was so defined by this feeling that when you looked at the Madisons, and Milwaukees, and surrounding areas, there was functionally growing into further and further apart from other parts of the state. I now see the possibility with these maps, and maybe that was so overblown — maybe the reason that there was such a bad split was because there were literally maps drawn so that people couldn’t have —

You would see that divide.

I guess I’m curious, how real do you think a state that has become politically known for its urban-rural kind of split, how real do you think that split is as someone who kind of sits at an intersection of some of those things?

Well, I live in a small town. I have a lot of small town friends. And I have a lot of Democrats as friends. So I know that there’s a lot of people in rural areas that share my same values. So I don’t think it’s nearly as clear-cut as what it looks like with the maps.

So I think it’s going to be very interesting. I think there’s a lot of purple. And I think some people that were historically maybe even red will probably lean toward something different this election.

It does feel like there’s a little energy among Democrats in the state now. But it’s not like we hear energy around this election broadly, you know? We travel across the country, specific to 2024, and so much of what we hear is the opposite.

It’s apathy. I don’t like the candidates. I don’t want to get involved. I want to actually ignore this race. And I know that there are ways that when you localize the issues, you can talk to people more specifically. But I guess I was just curious to flip it the other way for a second. Like, when you look nationally, like Donald Trump versus Joe Biden again, is it hard to create energy with such familiarity at the top of the ticket?

So I will say that I’m very clear that Joe Biden as the Democratic nominee is an imperfect person. And there are some things, particularly around Gaza, that are concerning to me. But I feel very good about what he’s done. I feel like he’s done such important work with the infrastructure bill, with the CHIPS and Science Act, that when I look at what he’s accomplished, to me, it’s kind of a no-brainer to say, oh, my gosh, let’s do more of that.

You have been incredible in that role. And the other day, I was listening to a woman who is a Native American, and she made a good point — she said, in our culture, we really respect elders. We respect that they have a knowledge from living a long life.

And I feel like, in some ways, we’re wanting sort of entertainment. But I think that is something that we really need to consider is this respect for this wisdom that is a through-line because of his experience, and because of his age, and life experience. And I think we can get beyond the numbers a bit and just see what he’s done, what he’s capable of doing, and who he is as a man, I feel really excited that he’s —

Is that what you hear when you talk to people?

That’s what I hear when I talk to myself. That’s what I share with other people.

I guess I’m asking, in the energy sense, in the community sense.

I would say that there’s some of that, right, in the Democratic Party. I would say, not globally, locally. But again, I think that’s the message that just needs to get out there, then.

And so it is about getting energized to present this other narrative that I think is valid. I think it’s really viable. So hopefully there will be more energizing of it with many of us bringing it to the forefront.

Yeah. Yeah.

Thanks for your time.

Thank you.

Thank you.

No, this was great.

I it ended up being OK.

No, of course. Of course.

So we’re going to do —

And does anyone need a clipboard?

I do, please, and thank you.

I’ll give you this one, then.

[CHATTER]

Are we all taking two sheets, or are we all taking one?

I took two. I think two is better.

How do people feel about braving the rain a little bit?

It’s fine. It’s not that many drops. They’re not very dense.

— bring ponchos so each person can have one.

Did you make that?

I did. Yeah. I did. I just —

Can you describe what it is for the audio?

So this is a map with the three assembly seats that make up the 14th senate seat with each of the townships, villages, and cities mapped out on it so that — because the maps have changed, not everybody knows which district they’re in. So when they say, I’m not in that district I can say, yes, you are. Right there.

Oh, my. Look at this weather. OK.

This porch is so cool.

I love wraparound porches.

Amazing.

I love them.

Hello, are you, David?

Yes, I am.

Hi, David. My name is Sarah Keyeski, and I’m running for local state senate District 14.

God, what are you doing? I’m a hot mess.

If you would, would you please sign my —

Oh, my gosh. I would love to.

Do you know what this is?

No.

It’s a microphone.

Can I try?

Yeah, you want to try it?

Well, and the down-ballot is really the bottom line. And at least in my limited time as a voter, I feel like, is what has the most significant impact on my day-to-day — and especially as a parent, on my day-to-day life. It’s definitely the first time I’m not enthusiastic, especially around the presidential election.

Why is that?

I really liked Biden a while ago. And not that I don’t like him anymore, you know what I mean? But yeah, I think my struggle is a lot around foreign policy decisions being made.

Were you feeling better about Biden before the last six months post-October 7?

Yes, for sure. Yes. Yeah, for sure.

I never stood behind the ageist kind of perspective, because both candidates are old, right? Would I prefer to have a candidate that’s closer to my age as a millennial? For sure, right?

But it’s not the world we live in. So sometimes you have to navigate the world you live in. And prior to what happened six months ago, I wouldn’t say I was excited, but I was more accepting of it. So when we voted in the recent election, my husband and I, neither one of us voted for Biden, right?

We did the protest vote, essentially. Now, we will vote for Biden in the election. But I wanted to send a message that I did not think that the way he was handling US policy around Israel and Palestine was appropriate.

So that had a little bit of impact, I think, right? Biden talked to Netanyahu and came down a little more forcefully than he had in the past. So yeah, hopefully it does make a difference. But what I’m really excited about is my local elections, and who I’m voting for, and who I’m going to —

Who would that be? Who are you voting for?

Her name is Sarah Keyeski. She’s the best.

I love you. Yay. This is so — oh, my god, you guys. And your patience.

Hi, there.

Don’t get blown away.

I know. I was looking for Diane.

Why don’t you just come in? I don’t want you blowing away.

Well, welcome to Wisconsin.

Thank you for welcoming us to your home. It’s so beautiful.

The old Victorian, you know?

Yes. I’m like, I don’t get to see these kind of houses very often, and now they’re inviting me in? I love it. Thank you.

Well, yeah.

If you don’t — yeah, so would you mind also signing nomination papers?

Would be glad to.

Thank you so much.

Have you all always been in this area?

Since 1979 been in the Lodi area. Yes. My kids went to school here. I raised them here. My late husband was the chief of police here. And I actually reconnected with someone I went to high school with at a class reunion, and we got married 12 years ago.

What a lovely story.

And I took her to the dark side.

He’s a retired firefighter and paramedic.

Yeah.

And you’re from Lodi?

No, I was actually from — I lived in a few different communities. So I worked for the city of Wauwatosa. And I had 32 years there. And I was teaching EMS for 37 years with the school system down in Milwaukee.

One of the things that’s been really important to me is first responder mental health.

It’s big.

It’s big. It is. And I’ve been talking to the chief of police a bit about that over the last couple of years. And then I’ve had some people that work EMS as clients, and I just feel like that’s an issue that is really not well-understood or addressed.

Probably not.

And so wanting —

Where it should be.

Yeah.

Can I ask a political question?

Yeah. Sure.

I’m curious just how you all feel about this election. Can you just describe if you think to November and election day, what’s the emotion that comes to your mind?

Wow, that’s a loaded question. I would have to say that I think I am afraid that the people in the United States today have forgotten our history, and what has happened in the years past, and what caused us to go into World War II. I’m not ashamed to say that I think Trump is a modern-day Hitler.

I think that he will take our country down a road, if he gets elected, that we don’t want to see. We experienced it once before, and I don’t ever want to see it happen again. And if he gets in again, I’m really afraid of what’s going to happen to this country.

Wisconsin holds such an important role, obviously, in the election. So I’m sure around you, there’s Trump supporters. I’m sure your friends, your people around you —

has it affected any personal relationships? Because you feel so strongly about the stakes here, I’m sure you also know people who love him.

We don’t talk about it.

It’s created a lot of problems with families. It’s created a lot of problems with neighbors. The society that we live in right now, I feel bad for the younger people because it’s a very hateful society. It’s all about me.

We’re fortunate — we have a couple, to answer your question, a couple neighbors that work well with us, but we really don’t get into those subject matters because we know who even our family members are, close ones that are on one side as opposed to the other. I don’t understand how women can vote for Trump because of his history.

And they do. He’s very forceful in how he presents himself. The biggest thing that bothers me in politics is even bigger than that. It has to do with age. We have two guys that are closing in on 80 years old. They’re running our country. Why?

Why can’t we get younger people in those positions? When I speak of younger, they have to be seasoned. They have to be somebody that has to be maybe, give or take 50, 60 years old that have visions for the future.

Do these older politicians have visions for the future or how much money that they put in their pockets? And I’m talking about both sides of that fence.

Does Biden’s age worry you as it worries him?

It worries me, because if something should happen to him in office, Kamala would come in as the next president. I don’t know that she’s totally qualified for it. But I think it is time for a woman to come into office.

I think when I look around the world, the number of female world leaders far surpasses what anyone would ever expect. And I think the United States is far behind in that aspect of things and giving women the credit that they’re due.

Could I just ask, what makes you unsure that she’s qualified?

Just listening to her — I can’t put a specific on it because I don’t honestly know all of her background. But when I listen to how she delivers her speeches, how she delivers responses to questions, it makes me wonder if she’s seasoned enough to take on that dynamic a role. And I could be totally wrong because she could come in and her confidence level could go from here off the roof.

And that’s what we need for any leader that would come in if something were to happen to Biden. I think she’s a good support person in the role that she’s in. I think she’s in a good position for what she’s got.

In 2016, remember people who — I went to Marquette in Milwaukee, so I have some friends who are still in Wisconsin — and I remember in 2016 people telling me, I don’t know about these polls. Things feel like Trump is kind of more popular here than people are saying.

And I remember in 2020 a kind of opposite feeling that people were feeling like, eh, I don’t know — like maybe he would lose. Do you have any feelings right now? Are people talking about the election? Do you have any sense from your neighbors or your community how people are feeling about the candidates?

I’m going to say “no” for this area right now. I haven’t even communicated with anybody about it. I was disappointed that President Biden chose to run again. Again, I’m the age guy.

I think we need Kamala — if even she ran herself with a different vice president person, whatever — however it would have played out. From what I’m seeing is it’s been silent. Neighbors don’t want to talk about it. Family members don’t want to talk about it. I hate to say it, my personal family members that are Trump supporters, they don’t hesitate.

Bring on the guns. Bring on this. Let’s fight them. Let’s get them. It’s that kind of concept.

My son is a Trump supporter.

Yeah, and mine was.

How could you be a Trump supporter? I don’t understand it. I raised you better than that.

But I mean, that’s —

[INAUDIBLE]

We have in the past, and we came to the conclusion that we were at an impasse. And there would have been no change. He was actually going out and buying weapons of mass destruction, I would say, because he was going to be ready. And I’m like, ready for what?

And that’s not us. In general, people have gotten this mentality.

And also — I’m sorry, I was going to try and cut it off. I was just going to thank you all. I think that was really helpful, partially, because we’re trying to ask people about how it feels locally for them, because as we travel, you can tell people tuning in to this election for the first time — and, to your point, some folks trying to block it out. And so this is helpful to hear how people are interacting with it within their families, within their communities.

I hope they’re smart like they were the last time.

And you know where I’m going with that. Again, I know I don’t like to see President Biden at his age being in a position. But —

I’d rather he was in office than Trump.

I would rather.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been just such a pleasure.

I hope —

So nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you all. Thank you.

Nice meeting you.

Thank you all so much.

[CHATTER]

You always walk around downtown with this —

Astead Herndon, nice to meet you.

Right. Yeah, it was kind of a dark time here in the state, because we have a progressive history here with Gaylord Nelson, and Proxmire, and lots of others that preceded me in these positions, whether it’s environment or anything else. And then suddenly, the right wave came through and took care of issues of let’s bust unions, let’s cut things for schools.

And, frankly, that just wasn’t consistent with my worldview and a lot of other people’s worldview. And we had to make that change — we have to be honest. We’re a purple state. We’re not a red state. We’re not a blue state. We’re a purple state.

And our legislative actions before I became governor, the actions of the executive branch certainly didn’t reflect that. And so we felt with the new maps, that we were in a much better place to do the work of the people.

What does it mean tangibly for these new maps? How will that translate to policy in this legislative session and going forward?

It’s going to have a huge — I’m spending most of my time outside of being a governor raising money for these folks that are going to be running for office, for the first time, many of them. But yes, absolutely, I think we can get all sorts of things done with fair maps. We’ve never taken Medicaid expansion here in the state of Wisconsin.

I’m sure we’re, I think, maybe 10 states, the rest of them all real red, that have not taken that. And as a result of that, our health care system is nowhere near where we want it to be, especially for people that struggle mightily in this state. So that is just a good common sense issue that we can work on together, frankly, with more Democrats in the legislature. It’s a numbers thing.

Yeah. Yeah. It creates a different level of possibility for you as governor also. We were canvassing out in Lodi yesterday, and one of the things that came up was how the maps kind of reinforced the sense of urban-rural divide in the state, partially because it made Democrats unable to win in some of those rural areas that they now have opportunities for. But something that also came up was the kind of sense that the Democrats had a bad brand in those rural communities.

I wanted to know what you thought about that. Do you think the Democratic brand needs some work in maybe places where Democrats weren’t able to run or weren’t competitive previously?

Yeah, and I guess some of that is with Democrats not having a great chance to represent those areas too, they’re hearing what Democrats in Milwaukee and Madison are talking about, which may, frankly, not have much to do with what’s happening in rural Wisconsin. So, yes, finding ways to deal with issues, whether it’s agriculture issues, whether it’s roads, or infrastructure, or things like that, yeah, that’s what we have to focus on.

And we have, frankly, since I’ve been governor. So I am jazzed about the future. We’re going to be able to get some things done that we, frankly, haven’t.

I wanted to talk about the national race, too, because Wisconsin, uniquely, obviously sits an important place in the electoral college, but also part of this Democratic blue wall that’s often talked about where the presidential race will likely come through Wisconsin, Michigan, where am I — Pennsylvania, right? Just as the governor, what do you think this race will come down to?

Biden won by 21,000 votes last time — four of the last six presidential races in Wisconsin won by less than a percentage point. Do you expect it to be that close again?

Yes, absolutely. There’s nothing to lead me to believe otherwise. It’ll be a close race. And I think Biden will win, but, yeah, it’ll be close. We are a purple state.

And our purpleness will be evident. But I also believe that our work to create new maps and have new legislators and more Democratic legislators to, essentially, reflect what Wisconsin is, that will bring out more people and more Democrats. And I think that will help not only Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, I think it’ll help Tammy Baldwin and others that are running for office.

People are fired up. And what’s happening on the national stage, whether it’s about abortion or democracy, all those things play a role here in Wisconsin too. And so I think it’ll be a good turnout of people. It could be record-breaking.

It seems like we’re kind of flipping the script. We usually talk about the top of the ticket having the tail down-ballot. It sounds like you’re talking about down-ballot actually fueling the top.

That’s our hope. What’s good for the gander, it’s good for the goose — or vice versa. I’m not sure which that is. But yeah, they help us. We help them.

We’ve seen Biden certainly come to Wisconsin and prioritize the state with the kind of recognition of its importance in November. I know it’s still six, seven months out, I know it’s going to be close here, but do any of this kind of polling, bad approval ratings, any of that type of what I think is consternation from national Democrats, how do you feel about the state where it might come down to, are Democrats in trouble?

No different than it has been the last two elections. No, I think with the president visiting here often, and vice president also, and, frankly, I think Donald Trump coming here often is OK too.

What do you mean?

His stuff is way out there. And I think some of the things that he talks about, even moderate Republicans gasp. And so having him around is good.

You think the backlash helps you all?

Sure.

And yesterday, we were out in Lodi, as I was saying —

That’s the home of Susie the duck, by the way.

We learned about Susie the duck. We had no idea about Susie’s fame, but has a real crash course in Susie the duck yesterday.

See? That’s Wisconsin.

But when we were on the doors, people were pretty, even though there was excitement about the down-ballot, as you mentioned, and the ability to elect new Democrats, we heard a lot about Biden’s age. We heard a lot about Gaza.

We heard a lot of folks saying they wish they had other options.

Sur.

Sure. Age is always an issue. And I’m getting up there myself. But I’ll tell you — people might say, yeah, I’d like to have somebody younger. Well, that’s not a choice now.

Joe Biden is the age he is, and Trump’s the age he is, and they’re the two. The choices are stark differently. We are in a good place as a state to move forward. And let’s get it going. I will say Gaza is an issue. That’s going to continue to be an issue, obviously. There’s probably nothing more fluid than what’s going on in the Middle East.

And that will play out the way it plays out. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t have those concerns, because I do too. Everybody does. You see all these little kids getting murdered, frankly, is not a sight that anybody wants to see.

But at the end of the day, we’re voting for President of the United States. These are the two main candidates. And we got to get behind Biden, and we got to make sure that we have a Democratic legislature.

You talk about this being a purple state and the fact that you think Republicans and Trump actually aren’t reflecting that because of how extreme you’re saying they are. Do you have to keep Democrats in check too? Is there an opposite version here? Is there a version of the party that becomes too blue?

Yeah. Well, yes, I think there is. And some Democrats may disagree with me on this, but I believe that, as a purple state, that we, and after this next election, the middle becomes much larger on both sides. And I think —

What do you mean by that?

More moderates on both sides than ever before.

You think this November will produce that?

Yes.

OK.

No question in my mind. Are there really good liberals and some very good very conservative people? Yes, but most people live their lives in the middle. And that’s a reflection of a purple state.

And I think that means that we can get things accomplished. Small thing — marijuana, I believe strongly it will be legal here in the state of Wisconsin because there’s a whole bunch of moderate Republicans that feel that way and a whole bunch of moderate Democrats. So we can get that done. Is that a major thing? Absolutely not. But that’s just a good example of where I see the middle ground being a good place to be.

I mean, I see how you can make that case on the state level.

Yeah.

Is it a problem that that’s a harder case to make on a national level?

Oh, hell, yes. But I think deep down, most people are that way. I think what you hear many times on a national level is that, oh, my gosh, complaining about, why can’t people get together? Why can’t people do this together?

And it’s usually because the issues are so polarized that it doesn’t get accomplished. Well, frankly, there’s a lot of money at either end. So, yes, I think it’s harder at the national level. But let’s say this — let’s let the states show how we can do it.

The post-November with more moderates, do you use that veto power less? Do you expect to be — I was seeing how it’s been kind of synonymous with you kind of using that veto power because of the Republican legislature. As it changes, do you expect that to change?

Yes. Has to. That’s not a great way to govern. Do I take that job seriously? Hell, yes. But no, I would anticipate vetoing minimal 50 percent of what I do now, and could be that it just never comes to my desk because the moderates will say, well, we’re not there.

The moderate future to come.

Yeah.

Thank you. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much, governor.

Thank you. So you’ve heard about Susie the duck?

We have. We have. We literally —

The sole home of Susie the duck.

And we heard about the future, the Susie lineage.

The Susies to come. Yeah.

We did an episode about the gerrymander when we were first starting, partially because when I was in school, I remember it being such a formative thing I learned about political power. It was as kind of the protests were happening here during Walker, and I remember being in Milwaukee and just feeling like more than D or R, the things that I want to tell these people is that they’re written out of the process, you know? And so it became this thing I kind of got obsessed with. And so I like that we’re looping back around now to —

Wisconsin elections are decided by a couple of votes per precinct around the state. And that means that if you have a candidate for state legislature who inspires a few hundred people to vote who might not otherwise have done so, that person could help tip the entire presidential election in the state that could tip the entire country.

And that means that this idea of reverse coattails, that a down-ballot candidate can help an up-ballot candidate win, it could really change the history of our country in Wisconsin in this year. This is not a year, if you read all the polls characterized by white hot levels of voter enthusiasm in the presidential race — but in state legislative races, there are a bunch of people who are furious at their Republican representatives.

And those voters now, if they get together, they can turn out and they can flip a district that flips the state. And that could flip the presidential race too.

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Donald Trump has been held in criminal contempt. That’s a really, really big deal. He’s also been fined $9,000, but let’s put aside the fine for a second and just talk about what it means to be held in contempt. It means that he’s disobeyed the court and, in fact, flouted the law.

In March, the judge imposed a gag order that bars Trump from attacking witnesses, jurors, and various other people involved in the case. The judge found that Trump had violated this order nine separate times, thus the $9,000 penalty, $1,000 for each time he violated it. And it prompted the judge to warn him that if he continues to disobey, he could be sent to jail.

So what we have in front of us is the possibility that one of the most powerful people in the world, who was the commander-in-chief, who is now under the thumb of a New York state court trial judge could be sent to jail by that judge if he continues to do what he frequently does, which is disobey orders and lash out at his adversaries, whether real or perceived. Other than Trump having been held in contempt, we also have the trial proper in which witnesses testify.

We have what I would call tentpole witnesses. Those are the witnesses who are going to help unspool the narrative in a major way and who are going to get firm cross-examination by the defense. So far, we’ve had six witnesses overall, but we’ve only had two tentpole witnesses. The first we talked about last week — that was David Pecker, the former publisher of the “National Enquirer.”

And what Pecker said, just to remind you, is that he had entered into a secret plot with Trump and Michael Cohen to suppress negative stories about Trump and, thus, aid him in the 2016 election. And then, on Tuesday, we landed on our second tentpole witness, Keith Davidson. Keith Davidson was a lawyer to Stormy Daniels. He represented her in 2016 when she was seeking to be paid for her story of having had sex with Donald Trump, a story that Trump has always denied.

And Davidson on Tuesday kind of took the baton from David Pecker. He corroborated some of the testimony but then moved us on to Stormy Daniels. And as of Wednesday, when court is off, where we are is that Michael Cohen, in Davidson’s telling, back in 2016, is just about to pay him the $130,000 of hush money that will keep Stormy Daniels silent and, the Trump campaign believes, prosecutors say, help ease Trump’s path to the White House.

I mean, we’ve seen emotion radiating from Trump in the courtroom. We’ve seen him glower. We’ve seen him glare. We’ve seen him shake his head. We’ve seen him look disgusted.

The other thing he does is he closes his eyes a lot. What it may be happening is that people in Trump’s orbit say he closes his eyes when he’s seeking to calm down. And so it may be that this testimony is so enraging him — and, to be clear, we’re hearing testimony about Trump having affairs, cheating, hiding it from his wife, Melania, being cheap, being frugal. And, of course, it’s making him mad.